Mpikisano ku America: Dzanja Losaoneka la Maganizo Opanda Nzeru

Kwa nthawi yotsala ya zaka zana lino, ziweruzo zokhudzana ndi kutchuka komanso momwe mtundu umakhudzira anthu aku America zifunikira kukumbukira zochitika zingapo zaposachedwa. Kupandukira kwathunthu ku Ferguson ndi Baltimore, kuphedwa kwamitundu ina ku Charleston, komanso mndandanda wakupitilira amuna, akazi, ndi ana wakuda omwe sanaphedwe ndi apolisi apitilizabe kukhala ndi zofunika. Chowonadi chododometsa ndichakuti izi zidachitika pomwe okhala ku White House anali banja laku Africa America. Nthawi ina, malingaliro osadziwika a tsankho komanso kusankhana mitundu anali ponseponse mdziko la America, koma kuyambira nthawi ya Ufulu Wachibadwidwe vitriol yafota.

Masiku ano ndi ochepa okha aku America omwe amavomereza mtundu uliwonse wamatsutso akuda. Ngati kusankhana mafano kwachikale sikukuyambitsa, chifukwa chiyani zotsatira za akuda zikuipiraipira kuposa za Azungu m'magawo ambiri amoyo? Ndipo nchifukwa ninji mkhalidwe wamakono wa maunansi amtundu — wodziŵika ndi apolisi, ndende, ndi ulova — umaonedwa mosiyana motero ndi anthu akuda a ku America ndi a White America?

Ndikukhulupirira kuti mayankho ena ofunika pamafunso amenewa amapezeka muzisankho zomwe ambiri aife sitimadziwa. M'buku lawo latsopano, Blindspot: Kusakhulupirika Kobisika Kwa Anthu Abwino , Dr. Anthony Greenwald, pulofesa wama psychology ku University of Washington ndi Dr. Mahzarin Banaji, katswiri wama psychology aku Yale University, agawana zotsatira za zaka 30 zakufufuza zamaganizidwe kuti timvetsetse bwino za mipata yathu yapano.

Malinga ndi kafukufuku wawo, anthu ena "abwino" omwe sangaganize kuti ndi atsankho, okonda zachiwerewere, andewu, ndi zina, komabe, amabisala pankhani yokhudza mtundu, jenda, kugonana, kulumala, komanso msinkhu. Zosankhazi zimachokera ku gawo la malingaliro lomwe limagwira ntchito moyenera komanso moyenera, ndipo limagwira ntchito yake kunja kwa kuzindikira kwathu. Tikafunsidwa ngati tili ndi zikhulupiriro kapena malingaliro awa, nthawi zambiri timawakana, komabe zimakhudza kwambiri zisankho ndi machitidwe athu.

Ndinakambirana mozama ndi Dr. Greenwald za zidziwitso zomwe nthawi zambiri zimakhala zodabwitsa kuchokera Blindspot .

JR: Nchiyani chakulimbikitsani kuti mulembe Blindspot?

AG: Pakatikati mwa zaka za m'ma 1990, wolemba nawo Mahzarin Banaji, Brian Nosek (wofufuzanso wina wochokera ku Yunivesite ya Virginia), ndipo tidapanga Implicit Association Test (IAT) kuti tiziyesa zomwe anthu sakudziwa. IAT yatulutsa zotsatira zolimba kwambiri komanso zochititsa chidwi kwambiri. Anthu ambiri anali ndi chidwi chakuti tinawona kuti tiyenera kutulutsa china chomwe chinali chophunzitsika, chowerengeka, ndipo chitha kuwonetsa zina mwazomwe zimachitika pakufufuza kotere.

JR: IAT siyinanso mafunso amafunso a pensulo ndi mapepala. Kodi mungafotokozere kuti ndi mayesero amtundu wanji komanso momwe amatha kuyeza zovuta zomwe munthu sakudziwa kuti ali nazo?

AG: Inde, koma njira yofulumira kwambiri yophunzirira momwe IAT imagwirira ntchito kuti itenge mayeso amodzi. Kuyesa kwa mpikisano kuli patsamba la Project Implicit ndipo zimangotenga mphindi zochepa. Palinso zitsanzo zosindikizidwa za IAT mu Blindspot kuti mutha kutenga ndikulemba.

Mwachidule, IAT ndi ntchito yamagawo awiri yophatikiza kuyankha kwamawu angapo ndi nkhope zomwe zimawoneka pakompyuta. Mawuwo ndiosangalatsa kapena osasangalatsa ndipo nkhope zawo ndi nkhope za anthu akuda kapena azungu. Pachigawo choyamba cha IAT mukufunsidwa kuti mupange yankho lomwelo (kanikizani kiyi yemweyo) pomwe nkhope yoyera kapena mawu osangalatsa awonekera pazenera ndikukankhira kiyi wina ngati nkhope yakuda kapena mawu osasangalatsa awoneka. Mumayesetsa kuchita izi mwachangu momwe mungathere osalakwitsa. Mu gawo lachiwiri, muli ndi malangizo atsopano. Tsopano nkhope zoyera ndi mawu osasangalatsa adalumikizidwa palimodzi, ndipo mumayankha nkhope zakuda ndi mawu osangalatsa pogwiritsa ntchito kiyi wina. Kusiyanitsa pakati pa nthawi yomwe zimatengera mayesowa ndi njira yokonda. Ngati, monga anthu ambiri, mumathamanga nkhope zoyera ndi mawu osangalatsa atalumikizidwa palimodzi kuposa pomwe nkhope zakuda zimasindikizidwa ndi mawu osangalatsa, muli ndi malingaliro okonda kuwona nkhope za azungu, komanso azungu, koposa anthu akuda.

Nditapanga ndi kuyesa ntchitoyi cha mu 1995, ndinali wodabwitsidwa kuti ndimathamanga kwambiri kuposa m'modzi.

JR: Iyi ndi imodzi mwanthawi zomwe aha amachita mu sayansi pomwe wasayansi amayesa kuti adziyese yekha.

AG: Ndinawona kuti ndimatha kuyika nkhope zoyera ndi mawu osangalatsa mwachangu kwambiri kuposa momwe ndingayikitsire nkhope zakuda ndi mawu osangalatsa limodzi. Ndinadziuza ndekha kuti iyi inali nkhani chabe. Koma kusiyana kwa nthawi sikunasinthe ndikuchita zambiri. Ndidayesa mayeso kokwanira 100 pazaka 20 zapitazi ndipo zambiri zanga sizinasinthe kwambiri. Ndinaganiza kuti izi zinali zosangalatsa kwenikweni, chifukwa zotsatira zanga zakuyesa zimandiuza kuti panali china chake m'malingaliro mwanga chomwe sindimadziwa kuti chidalipo kale.

JR: Chomwe chimadabwitsa owerenga kwambiri zomwe zili m'bukuli?

AG: Chomwe chakhala chovuta kwambiri kwa owerenga ndi ena omwe atenga IAT, ndikufalikira kwa zoseketsa zomwe zawululidwa mu kafukufuku yemwe timachita. Ndikanena kuti zachuluka, sindimangotanthauza kuchuluka kwa anthu omwe ali ndi tsankho. Palinso malingaliro osiyanasiyana osiyanasiyana, monga kukonda azungu kuposa akuda, achichepere kuposa achikulire, aku America kuposa aku Asia, ndi zina zambiri. Kutha kwa deta ndikodabwitsa. Mwachitsanzo, Implicit Association Test ikuwonetsa kuti 70% ya anthu amakonda achinyamata kuposa achikulire, ndipo kusankhana zaka kumeneku kumachitika mwamphamvu mwa anthu azaka 70 kapena 80 monga momwe zilili ndi anthu azaka 20 kapena 30.

JR: M'makambirana athu aposachedwa, mwatchulapo za psychology yomwe ili ndi Implicit Revolution. Kodi mungatiuze za izi?

AG: Inde ndipo kusinthaku kuli gawo lina lomwe lidayambitsa kuyesedwa kwa Implicit Associations Test, yomwe ndi njira yoyambirira ya Mayeso Athu a Maganizo Otsimikiza. Zinayamba koyambirira kwa zaka za m'ma 1980 pomwe akatswiri amisala anali kuphunzira kukumbukira, ndipo adapeza njira zatsopano (kapena adayambitsanso njira zina zakale) kuwonetsa kuti anthu amatha kukumbukira zomwe samakumbukira. Izi zidatenga mawonekedwe a "ntchito zachiweruzo" zomwe zimawonetsa kuti adatenga kena kake, koma sanakumbukire zomwe zidachitikazo. Kukumbukira kwamtunduwu kumatchedwa kukumbukira kwathunthu, mawu omwe adatchuka kumapeto kwa zaka za m'ma 1980 ndi a Dan Schacter yemwe ndi pulofesa ku Harvard.

Ine ndi Mahzarin tinayamba kukhala ndi chidwi kwambiri ndi kafukufukuyu ndipo tinaganiza kuti titha kugwiritsa ntchito zama psychology. Chifukwa chake tidayamba kupanga njira yodziwira malingaliro ndi malingaliro olakwika. Tinakhala zaka zingapo tikuyesera kupeza njira yomwe ingagwire ntchito ndi maphunziro aanthu, omwe panthawiyo anali akatswiri akuukoleji ochokera ku Ohio State University, University of Washington, Yale ndi Harvard. Tidachita bwino ndipo tidawona kuti kumvetsetsa zamkati mwamaganizidwe athu kuli ndi kuthekera kwakukulu.

Kafukufukuyu adachita bwino kwambiri, mwakuti zidadzetsa kusintha kwa malingaliro pama psychology. Ndipo ikusonkhanitsabe mphamvu zaka 25 kuchokera pomwe idayamba ndikumakumbukira. Pafupifupi zaka 5 zapitazo, ndidaganiza kuti tikufuna dzina lakusinthaku, chifukwa chake ndidayamba kuitcha Implicit Revolution. Awa simawu achire omwe mungapeze kulikonse. M'malo mwake, sindinafalitse chilichonse kuyesera kulengeza kuti ndi chizindikiro cha zomwe zikuchitika tsopano ndipo sizinaphatikizidwepo Blindspot . Koma ndikuganiza kuti ndichinthu chenicheni.

JR: Ndipo mukutanthauza chiyani potanthauza "kutanthauzira"?

AG: Malingaliro amachita zinthu zokha zomwe zimangotipatsa malingaliro athu ndikupereka maziko achiweruzo. Zotsatira zake ndikuti timapanga ziweruzo zomwe zimatsogoleredwa ndi zinthu zomwe sitidziwa. Timangopeza zotsiriza, ndipo sitimazindikira momwe zinthuzo zasinthidwira ndi zomwe takumana nazo m'mbuyomu. Ndipamene tsankho ndi malingaliro olakwika amabweramo.

JR: Ndamva kuti izi zimatchedwa magawo osiyanasiyana azidziwitso ndi chilankhulo chomwe mungagwiritse ntchito pofotokoza?

AG: Inde magulu awa afotokozedwa m'njira zosiyanasiyana, koma chofunikira ndichakuti pali magawo. Pali pang'onopang'ono, magwiridwe antchito omwe ali kunja kwa kuzindikira, komanso chidwi chachikulu chomwe chitha kugwira ntchito mwadala komanso mozindikira ndi cholinga chodziwa. Ndiko kusiyanitsa komwe kumatanthauzira Implicit Revolution. Tikukweza gawo lotsikirali - mulingo wosadziwika, mulingo wodziwikiratu, mulingo wachilengedwe - kutchuka komwe kukugwirizana ndi kufunikira kwa ntchito yomwe imagwira.

JR: Chifukwa chake ngati ndikumvetsetsa bwino, tikamazindikira zinthu, malingaliro ndi malingaliro awo ndiomwe amachokera kuzinthu zopanda chidziwitso? Sitikudziwa kwenikweni za "kupanga soseji" yomwe idapanga izi zomaliza zamaganizidwe ndi kuzindikira?

AG: Ndiwo fanizo lalikulu. Chitsanzo china chomwe ndimakonda kugwiritsa ntchito posiyanitsa ichi ndi cha kusaka kwa Google. Mukayang'ana china chake mu Google, zotsatsa zimangotulutsa mawonekedwe pakompyuta yanu zomwe zikugwirizana ndi zomwe mumafuna. Nthawi iliyonse tikalowetsa funso mu injini zosakira pamakhala njira zachangu kwambiri komanso zosaoneka zomwe sitimatha ngakhale kutsatira. Zomwe timawona ndizopanga zomwe zimawoneka pazenera. Kusiyanitsa pakati pa kuseri kwazenera komwe kumagwira ntchito mwachangu kwambiri komanso zomwe zimawoneka pazenera, zomwe titha kuwerengera ndikumasulira ndikugwiritsa ntchito, zikugwirizana ndi magawo awiri omwe amakambirana pano mu psychology.

JR: Stereotype ndi liwu lomwe ndilofunika kwambiri pantchito yanu. Timagwiritsa ntchito kwambiri, koma sindikutsimikiza kuti nthawi zonse timakhala ndi chidziwitso chokwanira cha tanthauzo lake. Kodi mumagwiritsa ntchito bwanji mawu akuti stereotype pantchito yanu?

AG: Mawu oti stereotype adayamba ngati malingaliro m'malemba a mtolankhani Walter Lippmann. Anachokera ku mawu osindikiza omwe amatanthauza chidutswa chachitsulo chokhala ndi tsamba la mtundu wake lojambulidwa lomwe lingagwiritsidwe ntchito kupukuta makope angapo otsatizana, lililonse lofanana ndi linzake. Walter Lippmann adagwiritsa ntchito malingaliro ofanana kutanthauza malingaliro otulutsa chithunzi cha aliyense m'gulu linalake, monga zaka, fuko, jenda, kapena ena omwe tsopano timalumikizana nawo. Zofananira zikagwiritsidwa ntchito kumvetsetsa anthu, aliyense pagulu la anthu amawoneka kuti akugawana zomwezo. Momwe timawonera azimayi onse, okalamba onse, olumala onse, aku Italiya onse omwe ali ndi mawonekedwe ofanana tikugwiritsa ntchito chimodzimodzi chomwe Lippmann amafotokoza ngati chomwe chimasindikizidwa. Ma stereotypes amathetsa bwino kusiyana pakati pa anthu amtundu uliwonse, m'malo mwake amangoyang'ana pamikhalidwe yomwe amagawana.

JR: Ndamva zolakwika zomwe zimawoneka ngati mtundu wa malingaliro aulesi. Mukuganiza bwanji zakayankhulidwe kakale koti malingaliro olakwika ali ndi chidziwitso cha chowonadi?

AG: Ndikuganiza kuti nthawi zambiri amatero. Ndili ndi malingaliro akuti madalaivala aku Boston satha kuwongolera. Ngakhale ndikuganiza kuti pali chidziwitso chenicheni, sindikufuna kuganiza kuti oyendetsa ndege onse ku Boston ndi anthu amtchire ndipo muyenera kuyesetsa kuti musayende mumsewu Mzindawu wa chowonadi nthawi zambiri umakhala kusiyana pakati pa gulu limodzi ndi gulu lina. Mwachitsanzo, pali zowonekeratu pamalingaliro azimayi kuti amuna ndiwotalika poyerekeza ndi akazi. Koma sizitanthauza kuti mwamuna aliyense ndi wamtali kuposa akazi onse. Vuto lokhala ndi malingaliro olakwika ndipamene timanyalanyaza kusiyana pakati pa anthu m'gululi. Inde inde, pali kernel ya chowonadi ku malingaliro olakwika, koma timataya chowonadi mukawalola kuti azilamulira malingaliro athu pamlingo woti sitikuwona kusiyana pakati pa anthu.

Ndiyenera kunena chinthu chinanso chokhudza lingaliro loti malingaliro olakwika ndi ulesi wamaganizidwe. Izi ndizolondola. Tikamagwiritsa ntchito malingaliro ofanana, malingaliro athu amangogwira ntchito zokha ndikutipatsa china chake chomwe nthawi zina chimakhala chothandiza ndipo nthawi zina sichothandiza. Koma nthawi zambiri sizimavutitsa kuti tizidzifunsa ngati zili zothandiza kapena ayi. Tiyenera kudziwa kuti malingaliro athu amagwira ntchito motere. Ndi njira yodziwika bwino yogwirira ntchito ndipo imagwira ntchito yabwino kwambiri kwa ife. Koma tiyenera kukhala osamala kuti nthawi zina zingagwire ntchito yomwe imasokoneza zomwe tikufuna kuchita.

JR: Mukudziwa kuti panali lingaliro losangalatsa mu chaputala 5 cha buku lanu zokhudzana ndi malingaliro olakwika omwe sindinakumaneko nawo kale. Ndi lingaliro lodabwitsa kuti kugwiritsa ntchito malingaliro olakwika kumatha kukufikitsani poti mutha kuwona momwe munthu alili wapadera komanso wapadera, zomwe ndizosiyana kwambiri ndi malingaliro olakwika. Kodi mungafotokoze izi?

AG: Inde ndi lingaliro lovuta, ndipo lomwe silikupezeka kwenikweni mu psychology yamagulu. M'mutuwu tidasanthula momwe tingagwirizanitsire magulu monga mtundu, chipembedzo, zaka, ndi zina zambiri kuti tipeze zolengedwa zapadera kwambiri, chifukwa zophatikizazi zimapanga zithunzi m'malingaliro athu. Mwachitsanzo, m'mutuwu tidakulangizani kuti muganizire za pulofesa wakuda, Msilamu, makumi asanu ndi limodzi, Mfalansa. Tsopano, ambiri sanakumaneko ndi aliyense wokhala ndi mawonekedwe onsewa, koma titha kulumikizana pamodzi ngati mitundu ya ntchito, malingaliro azakugonana, ndi zina zambiri, ndikuphatikiza kuti apange gulu la anthu omveka kwa ife. Sitivuta kupanga chithunzi chabwino chamunthu wamtunduwu, ngakhale mwina sitinadziwepopo munthu woteroyo m'moyo wanu wonse.

JR: Bukhu lanu limatengera kafukufuku wambiri. Ntchitoyi ili ndi anthu opitilira 2 miliyoni omwe atenga nawo mbali.

AG: Kwenikweni anthu opitilira 16 miliyoni. Tidayamba mu 1998 ndipo tsopano pali mitundu 14 yosiyana siyana patsamba lino. Ambiri aiwo akhala akuthamanga kwazaka zopitilira khumi. Tikudziwa kuti Implicit Association Test idamalizidwa kupitilira 16 miliyoni Imodzi yomwe yamalizidwa kuposa mitundu ina yonse ndiyoyesa malingaliro ampikisano, yomwe imayesa chisangalalo ndi kusasangalatsa komwe kumakhudzana ndi mitundu yakuda ndi yoyera. Mayesowa adamalizidwa pakati pa 4 mpaka 5 miliyoni.

JR: Mbali imodzi yosangalatsa ya Blindspot ndizochita zokambirana, zowoneka, ndi zitsanzo zothandiza zomwe zimathandizira anthu kutengapo malingaliro ndi malingaliro. Kumayambiriro kwa bukulo onetsani lingaliro la malo akhungu. Kodi mungatiuze kuti ichi ndi chiyani komanso momwe malo akhungu amatithandizira kumvetsetsa gawo lonseli lazolakwika komanso tsankho?

AG: Malo akhungu ndi chiwonetsero chakale chazidziwitso chomwe chimaphatikizapo kuyang'ana tsamba lomwe lili ndi madontho awiri ojambulidwa pafupifupi mainchesi asanu patsamba loyera. Mukatseka diso limodzi ndikuyang'ana pa kadontho kamodzi ndikusuntha tsambalo mkati mwa mainchesi 7 amaso anu, dontho linalo limasowa. Ndiye, ngati mutasintha diso lotseguka ndi lomwe latseka, kadontho kamene kamasowa kamayamba kuwonekera ndipo kadontho kena kamatayika. Ndiwo akhungu. Mukakumana ndi khungu lakuwonetseralo, kumbuyo kumakhala kosalekeza, ndipo pamakhala chinyengo cha bowo m'masomphenya anu. Izi ndichifukwa choti ubongo wanu umadzaza mosadziwika ndi china chilichonse kwanuko. Malo akhungu amakhala fanizo la chidutswa cha zida zamaganizidwe zomwe sizikuwona zomwe zikuchitika.

JR: Ndife olimba kwambiri kuti tikhale ndi malo akhungu.

AG: Kulondola, koma malo akhungu am'mutu omwe tikunenawo si chida chokhacho chobwezeretsa. Ndizochitika zonse zamaganizidwe, zomwe sitingathe kuziwona zikuchitika. Zikuchitika mosawoneka. Izi ndizofunikira kwambiri. Chodabwitsa cha Implicit Association Test ndikuti zimatipatsa njira yowonera magawo am'malingaliro momwe zinthu izi zikuchitikira.

JR: Zotsatira zamtundu wa IAT zimati anthu ambiri aku America ali ndi zokonda nkhope zoyera poyerekeza ndi nkhope zakuda, zomwe ndizosavuta kukulitsa kukhala zokonda azungu kuposa anthu akuda. Koma tichite chiyani ndi izi? Kwa anthu ena kuti mumakonda nkhope zosiyanasiyana pamayesowa sikungakhale chidziwitso chofunikira kwambiri.

AG: Mungaganize kuti "Chabwino ndili ndi zokonda izi malinga ndi IAT, koma kodi imeneyo si njira yokhayo yoyezera zomwe ndinganene mukangondifunsa mafunso okhudzana ndi mafuko anga?" Koma ndizolakwika. Zokondera zowululidwa ndi IAT, sizikanatuluka ndikadangoyankha mafunso. Mukandifunsa mafunso okhudza kusankhana mafuko, sindingakane kuti ndili ndi mtundu uliwonse wamitundu. Osati chifukwa ndikunama, koma chifukwa sindikudziwa mayanjano omwe IAT imawulula. Njira iyi imagwiranso ntchito ku America ndi anthu akumayiko ena.

JR: Pali chitsanzo m'buku lanu chomwe wina adakulemberani nati palibe njira yoti amamukondera Martha Stewart kuposa Oprah Winfrey, ngakhale mayeso anu adanena kuti adatero.

AG: Eya. Izi zimachitika nthawi zonse. Pali chitsimikizo chomveka chokana kukhulupirira kuti zomwe IAT ikuyesa zili ndivuto lililonse. Titha kumvetsetsa izi molingana ndi magawo awiri omwe tidakambirana kale. IAT imayesa china chake chomwe chimangochitika zokha pansi, osazindikira. Mafunso ofufuza, komabe, komwe mumayankha ndi mawu kapena ma cheki amawonetsa malingaliro ozindikira omwe akuchitika pamwambamwamba. Tsopano tazindikira kuti magawo awiri amalingaliro sakuyenera kuti azigwirizana. Kenako limakhala funso la momwe angathetsere kusamvana uku.

Limodzi mwamafunso omwe timakhala nawo ndikuti mwina malingaliro osazindikira omwe amayesedwa ndi IAT amakhudza kwambiri machitidwe athu. Yankho ndilo inde. Mayanjano omwe timapanga nawo pamunsi, osadziwa kanthu amatulutsa malingaliro omwe amawonetsa mayanjanowo, ngakhale sitidziwa kuti tili nawo. Izi zitha kusintha malingaliro omwe timapanga mwanzeru.

Mkazi wanga anandiuza za nkhani yapa wailesi yomwe anamva za loya wakuda wotchedwa Bryan Stevenson yemwe amagwira ntchito ku Equal Justice Initiative. Anali m'khothi limodzi ndi kasitomala, yemwe anali mzungu, atakhala pa tebulo lachitetezo mlandu usanayambe. Woweruzayo adalowa ndikubwera kwa Mr. Stevenson nati “Hei, ukuchita chiyani utakhala patebulopo? Simukuyenera kukhala pano mpaka loya wanu wafika. "

JR: Ndizodabwitsa!

AG: Inde. Bryan Stevenson adaseka. Woweruza adaseka. Koma chinali chinthu choyipa kwambiri, kuwonetsa zochitika m'mutu mwa woweruza zomwe zidamuwuza kuti munthu wakuda yemwe wakhala patebulopo, ngakhale atavala suti, si loya koma wotsutsa.

JR: Oo. Mu chimodzi cha Zakumapeto mu Blindspot, mumalongosola kusintha kwakukulu pazaka zambiri momwe anthu adayankhira mafunso osapita m'mbali okhudza mtundu. Maganizo olakwika okhudza anthu akuda sakuvomerezedwanso, monga momwe zinalili nthawi ya Civil Rights isanafike. Kodi IAT sikutiuza kuti mafotokozedwe atsatanetsatane amtunduwu atha kusintha osasinthanso mayanjano omwe anthu ambiri atha kupitilizabe anthu akuda?

AG: Inde Mahzarin ndipo takhala tcheru kwambiri kuti ndinene kuti zomwe IAT ikuyimira sikuyenera kutchedwa kusankhana mitundu. IAT ikuyesa zokonda zokha za azungu poyerekeza ndi akuda. Izi ndi zokonda zomwe munthu angakhale nazo ngati amakonda azungu komanso akuda, ngati sakonda azungu ndi akuda, kapena ngati amakonda azungu komanso sakonda akuda. Koma uku sikusankhana mitundu. Ndi mgwirizano wamaganizidwe womwe umangochitika zokha. Ndizokhudzana ndi tsankho, koma sikuti ndi nkhanza. Ichi ndichinthu chomwe chimachitika mochenjera kwambiri.

JR: Chimodzi mwazosangalatsa zomwe mwapeza m'buku lanu ndikuti ambiri aku Africa aku America amakondanso azungu.

AG: Izi ndi zoona. Pakati pa anthu aku Africa-America ku United States pali kusiyana pakati pa iwo omwe amakonda nkhope zoyera poyerekeza ndi akuda ndi iwo omwe amakonda oyera akuda. Komabe ngati anthu omwewo afunsidwa ngati akumva kutentha kwa azungu motsutsana ndi anthu akuda, anthu aku Africa-America adzawonetsa momveka bwino kuti akumva bwino kwa anthu akuda kuposa azungu. Chosangalatsa ndichakuti zikuwoneka kuti anthu ambiri aku Africa aku America samayendetsedwa molondola andale ngati azungu, ambiri mwa iwo amaganiza kuti ngati akumva bwino mtundu wina kuposa wina kuti sayenera kufotokozera izi. Koma osati pakati pa anthu akuda. Anthu aku Africa aku America akuwonetsa mitundu yosiyanasiyana pamtundu wa IAT kuposa azungu, koma sizotsutsana ndendende. Amakhala osasunthika ndipo pafupipafupi amawonetsa zokonda zazing'ono mwanjira ina. Koma chomwe chikufanana ndi kusiyana pakati pa zomwe mawu awo akunena pazokonda ndi zomwe IAT imanena pazokonda zawo. Zomwe amakhulupirira moona mtima nthawi zambiri zimasiyana ndi zomwe amakonda, monga zimachitikira azungu.

JR: Ndikudabwa ngati buku lanu ladzetsa mpungwepungwe pagulu.

AG: Ndizosangalatsa. Ntchito yathu yasayansi yakhala yotsutsana poti pali anthu omwe amatsutsana kwambiri ndi lingaliro logwiritsa ntchito nthawi yogwiritsira ntchito ngati njira yoyezera mtundu wamalingaliro omwe m'mbuyomu amayesedwa ndi mafunso ofufuza omwe anali ndi mayankho amawu kapena kugwiritsa ntchito ma checkmark. Timakhala ndi mikangano yambiri mkati mwathu kuposa momwe timachitira ndi anthu wamba, kuphatikiza owerenga a Blindspot . Sipanakhale otsutsana mwamphamvu ndi zomwe zakumapeto kwa bukuli, ndipo anthu ambiri akuwona kuti malingaliro awa amawatsogolera kuti amvetsetse kuti ndikofunikira kuchitapo kanthu kuti tipewe magwiridwe antchito osakondera. Koma tili ndi anzathu asayansi omwe akufuna kumenyera izi.

JR: Sayansi mu Blindspot akuwonetsa momwe zovuta zambiri zosasinthazi zikusinthira. Koma zoti Barack Obama adasankhidwa kawiri kukhala purezidenti zikuwoneka kuti zikuwonetsa kusintha kwakukulu. Anthu ena amanenanso kuti zaka zamtundu watha ndikuti tili munthawi yamtundu wina.

AG: Ndili ndi lingaliro loti ndikudziwa asayansi angapo andale, zomwe Barack Obama adakwanitsa kusankha purezidenti ngakhale anali wakuda. Izi, mwa zina, zimakhudzana ndi zinthu zina zomwe zikuchitika mdzikolo. A Republican anali atayamba kutaya chithandizo chandale chifukwa cha mavuto monga kusamukira kudziko lina komanso mavuto azachuma a 2008. Asitikaliwa adangokhoza kuthana ndi mavoti omwe Obama adakumana nawo chifukwa chakuda. Ndafufuzadi pamutuwu womwe wafalitsidwa munyuzipepala zasayansi.

JR: M'gulu la anthu akuda nthawi zina timakambirana za china chomwe chimatchedwa msonkho wakuda. Ndiyo ndalama yowonjezera anthu akuda amalipira zinthu chifukwa amalandira ndalama zochepa, sapatsidwa ndalama zoyenera, kapena zolepheretsa kuchita bwino zimawavuta. Ndiye kodi msonkho wakuda wa Barack Obama unali chiyani? Kodi kukhala wakuda kunamutengera chiyani malinga ndi kuchuluka kwa zisankho?

AG: Chiyerekezo cha kafukufuku yemwe tidachita ndikuti panali kutsika pafupifupi 5% yamavoti a Obama chifukwa cha mtundu wake. Ndipo enanso apanga mawerengero ofanana. Palibe kukayika kuti Barack Obama sakanasankhidwa pachisankho cha Purezidenti chomwe chimachitika ndi ovota oyera okha. Obama akadataya ndi kugunda kwakukulu, mwina 60% mpaka 40% mokomera wotsutsana naye.

JR: Ndikudabwa kuti kafukufuku wanu wa IAT angatithandizire bwanji kuthana ndi mavuto ambiri ampikisano omwe akhala akupezeka pamitu yaposachedwa-zinthu monga kuwombera kosavomerezeka kwa apolisi aku Africa-America? Pazochitikazi, oyang'anira pafupifupi nthawi zonse amati amaganiza kuti miyoyo yawo ili pachiwopsezo, koma anthu aku Africa-America-ndipo mwina anthu ambiri-amayang'ana momwe zinthu ziliri ndikuganiza kuti zingatheke bwanji?

AG: Kuti tiyankhe funsoli, tifunika kusiyanitsa pakati pamachitidwe osiyanasiyana apolisi. Mwachitsanzo, apolisi akapezeka kuti akukumana ndi munthu yemwe atanyamula mfuti, sizingapangitse kusiyana kaya munthuyo ndi wakuda kapena woyera. Iwo angaganize kuti kaya munthu ameneyo ndi ndani, ngati akufuna china chake chomwe chingakhale mfuti, wapolisi atha kumvadi kuti pali chiwopsezo chenicheni. Ndiwo mkhalidwe wofunikira kwambiri, koma osati umodzi womwe ndaphunzira. Komanso sindine wokonzeka kunena momwe IAT imagwirira ntchito.

Mitundu yamapolisi yomwe ndimaphunzira ndiyofala kwambiri, monga kujambula. Nenani wapolisi akutsatira galimoto ndikusankha kuyimitsa chifukwa taillight sikugwira ntchito. Ndizodziwika bwino kuchokera pamaphunziro oyimilira komanso osakhazikika zomwe zimapangitsa kusiyana ngati woyendetsa ali woyera kapena wakuda. Ndiye mtundu wa zinthu zomwe zingabwere chifukwa chodzipangira zokha zomwe wapolisi sangadziwe. Sindikunena kuti kulibe apolisi omwe amachita nawo mwadala wakuda poyimilira. Ndikuganiza kuti izi zimachitika. Koma ndikuganiza kuti vuto lalikulu ndikulongosola mwatsatanetsatane komwe kumagwira ntchito mosavuta. Ngati wapolisi akukayikira kwambiri kuti china chake chosaloledwa chikuchitika ngati dalaivala ali wakuda, zikuwoneka kwa ine kuti pakhoza kukhala chowonekera, chodziwikiratu.

JR: Ndinadabwa kupeza kuchokera m'buku lanu kuti zina mwazinthu zabwino kwambiri zomwe zimapezeka mu zamankhwala, komwe anthu aku Africa-America amapatsidwa chithandizo chamankhwala chomwe sakonda kwenikweni. Ndipo anthu omwe akuwonetsa kukondera kuchipatala ndi ena mwa anthu ophunzitsidwa bwino mdziko muno.

AG: Zimakhala zovuta kukayikira kuti madotolo akupanga chisamaliro chazaumoyo, chomwe nthawi zambiri chimakhala ndi kufanana kwa azungu ndi akuda. Ndizovuta kwambiri kuchita izi ngati chinthu chomwe chimaphimbidwa ndi cholinga chofuna kupereka chithandizo chosakwanira kwa odwala akuda. Chifukwa chake zimakhala zomveka kuti china chake chikugwira ntchito pazinthu zina zongoyerekeza zomwe madokotala sangadziwe. Akatswiri ambiri azachipatala ali ndi chidwi ndi izi. M'maphunziro okhudzana ndi kusiyana kwa zamankhwala nthawi zambiri amakhala ndi zovuta kuti malingaliro awo azindikire kuti pangakhale china chomwe malingaliro awo akuwapangitsa kuti azisamalira zochepa kuposa momwe angafunire. Ndi chinthu chomwe tsiku lina chidzathetsedwa ndi maphunziro, koma osati mtundu wa maphunziro omwe ndiosavuta kuchita. Akatswiri azamaganizidwe amafunika kupitiliza maphunziro opitilira pazosintha zenizeni kuti athandize anthu kumvetsetsa momwe malingaliro awo angagwirire ntchito mosavuta.

JR: Izi Zosintha Zosintha ndikusintha kwakukulu kwa ife. Ambiri aife tazindikira kuti dziko lapansi ndi lozungulira komanso kuti limazungulira dzuwa. Koma ichi ndichachikulu kwa anthu omwe ali ndi chidziwitso chodziyimira pawokha ndipo amakonda kuganiza kuti ndi omwe ali tsogolo lawo.

Pamene tikumanga zinthu, ndikudabwa kuti ndi chiyani chomwe mungaganize kuti ndi uthenga wofunikira wopita nawo kunyumba womwe mungafune kuti anthu apezeko Blindspot?

AG: Ndi mtundu wa uthenga wodziwa nokha. M'buku lino, tinali kuyesa kuwonetsa zomwe psychology yaphunzira posachedwa za momwe malingaliro athu amagwirira ntchito ndi zomwe tingachite kuti tithandizire bwino zomwe timakhulupirira ndi zomwe timakhulupirira, motsutsana ndi malingaliro athu osazindikira. Chimodzi mwazinsinsi zakuchita izi ndi kungochita zinthu zomwe zimapangitsa malingaliro anu kuchita zambiri osati kungogwira ntchito zokha. Mungathe kuchita izi poyang'anitsitsa zomwe mukuchita.

JR: Mumapereka zovuta pamutu wabuku lanu ponena kuti awa ndi malingaliro abisika a anthu abwino. Awa ndi anthu omwe ali ndi zolinga zabwino omwe amadziona ngati abwino, koma zina mwamafukufuku anu zitha kutsutsa malingaliro amenewo.

AG: Muyenera kuzindikira kuti chifukwa china chamutuwu ndikuti olemba awiriwa amadziona kuti ndi anthu abwino ndipo ali ndi tsankho. Ndipo tikukhulupirira kuti sitili tokha poganiza kuti ndife anthu abwino ndipo sitili tokha posafuna kuti tizilamuliridwa ndi tsankho. Pali anthu ambiri oterewa ngati onse atagula bukuli ndikadakhala wolemera kwambiri.

JR: Chinthu chimodzi chomwe ndimakonda kunena pophunzitsa ophunzira kapena ophunzitsidwa za kuthana ndi anthu olakwira, anthu osagwirizana nawo, komanso ma psychopaths ndikuti anthu abwino amafuna kukhala abwino komanso amafuna kuti aziwoneka ngati abwino. Mosiyana ndi izi, ndimakhalidwe okonda zachiwawa, nthawi zambiri mumapeza kuti safuna kukhala abwino ndipo samawoneka ngati abwino. Chifukwa chake ndikuganiza kuti kufuna kukhala wabwino kumathandizira kuti uyambe kukhala wabwino. Njira yakudziyanjanayi ndiyomwe muyenera kuchita ngati mukukambirana kapena ayi. Ndikulangiza kwambiri buku lanu ndi kafukufuku wanu ngati poyambira panjira yodzidziwira-kudziwa komwe muli komanso komwe tili kuno ku America.

AG: Ndikufuna kukuthokozani popanga mfundoyi. Ife omwe timafuna kudziona tokha ngati anthu abwino tiyenera kukhala ndi chidwi chophunzira momwe zochita zathu zamaganizidwe athu zingasokonezere zolinga zathu. Imeneyi ndi mfundo yabwino kutha.

JR: Zikomo, Tony. Ndikuyamikira kwambiri kuwolowa manja kwanu ndi nthawi yanu komanso kupatsa mwayi owerenga mwayi woti agawireko koyambirira kwazinthu zina zatsopano zomwe mwatulutsa poyankhulana. Ndidzakhala ndikuyang'ana zambiri za Implicit Revolution. Kukhala ndi malingaliro awa momveka bwino kumakonzekeretsa njira zosinthira zabwino zambiri.

AG: Zikomo chifukwa cha zokambiranazi ndikuthokoza kuti mwachita chidwi ndi ntchito yathu.

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Dinani apa kuti mumvetsere kuyankhulana kwathunthu ndi Anthony Greenwald za buku lake Blindspot.